A CONVERSATION WITH JAMES RAY

BILL HARRIS: Hello. This is Bill Harris, and I want to welcome you to the Masters of the Secret Series. You’re in for a big treat tonight because my guest is my good friend James Ray. James is one of the stars of the hit DVD movie, The Secret, and has also appeared on Larry King Live and Oprah. James wears two hats, you might say.He is known as the master of the entrepreneurial mind set and has developed a series of books and audio tapes, videos, seminars, corporate training systems, online tools, and coaching aids that are used by individuals worldwide to improve their physical, financial, mental, relational, and spiritual results. He conducts more than 75 days of key note presentations and corporate trainings and seminars each year. He has an ability to take complex subjects and break them into manageable and understandable strategies for practical improvement, and he formed an alliance over 10 years ago at the Covey Leadership Center teaching the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. He’s talked to many Fortune 500 companies. He has a company called Quantum Consulting Group and he has had clients such as Boeing, Tropicana and AT&T, but with his other half James is very much a mystic and a spiritual teacher and has studied many, many spiritual traditions and has been initiated into three different shamanic orders from the Inca culture and is very, very knowledgeable about the Huna tradition of ancient Hawaii and I know James fairly well and he’s a very impressive individual and he really knows what he’s talking about in both of these areas. So, James, it’s really great to have you on the phone with me. We’re gonna have a lot of fun talking today. What’s going on in your life?

JAMES RAY: Well thanks Bill. It’s great to be here. Man, that was a mouthful, wasn’t it?

BILL HARRIS: Yeah, well, it takes a long time to tell everything that you do.

JAMES RAY: Well, I’m really excited about the series that you’re doing and I’m very excited in general Bill because I think we’re living in the most incredible time in history where we’re realizing maybe once again and maybe even for the first time at a deeper level that spirituality and the traditions in spirituality and the business world and those type of things are actually in congruency. They’re not out of congruency I should say, that they, that they work together and so I think that’s very, very exciting and in the quantum physics is really telling us that the things that the mystics have told us since time began.

BILL HARRIS: Yeah, you know I didn’t mean to give the impression that you had two different identities as a business person and as a spiritual person. I have found that most of the people that I know that are super successful business people and I mean including people like a friend of mine, Robert Danzing, who is the CEO of the entire Hearst Newspaper Group for 20 years I guess, and he’s one of the most spiritual people I know, too. As you know, these spiritual principles turn out to be, really when you get right down to it, business principles, life principles and it’s kind of an artificial distinction to divide things.

JAMES RAY: It is, you know. I think there was a time where science and spirituality thought they were two different, completely opposing studies, but now they’re coming together and I practice what I call practical mysticism. One of my teachers, you mentioned that I had stayed in the Andes and I studied it with the Peruvian Shamans for three years in the Andes, and one of my great teachers was Don Jose Luis and he used to say that “Power is an empty vessel unless it grows corn,” and you know corn in the Peruvian tradition was a very valuable commodity, but what he was using as a metaphor is to say that you’ve gotta be able to take those things that quantum physics are telling us are intangible but absolutely real and ground them into the physical plane and that’s what I’m all excited about. You’ve got to be able to take those, soar into the realms of the mystic, and understand spiritual principles but turn around and make money with them, run a business, you know, have health, have relationships and all those things that typically or historically in many cases we’ve thought were not spiritual.

BILL HARRIS: The way our society is set up today, money is the medium of exchange and in order to help other people, in order to help your family, in order to help yourself, you need to have some kind of wealth and it turns out of course that it’s not that difficult to create wealth if you know what you’re doing and we’re just not living in a culture where we’re all gonna go in a cave and meditate and have somebody come by and leave a little bit of food at the mouth of the cave once a day so that we can exist.

JAMES RAY: Thank god. (Laughter). You know, I mean, that’s why I fully believe Bill. I know you’ve done a lot of research and had experience with the eastern traditions as have I, but I don’t ever believe that the eastern traditions are going to really root deeply in western culture. There is a concept that out of the esoteric world of thought that is called a current, and in science we might call that a morphogenic field of which I’m sure you are familiar with that concept as well, but Rupert Sheldrake, for the listeners, Rupert Sheldrake postulated this concept of a morphogenic field which basically we’ve found now that the empty space that we think is around us is literally not empty. It’s living, breathing, conscious. And so, the esoteric traditions, the ancient traditions called that a current. There’s a certain level of current or energy that begins to collect into a space and in the east there’s a current that you can tap into but you have to be in resonance with that current. And what that means is you have to basically live a yogi lifestyle, and for the individual in the west in my opinion, to attempt to move into the realms that the eastern mystic moves into without adopting the yogi lifestyle is not going to be totally in resonance with that current. And so consequently it’s not ever gonna take on big time here in the west because in the west we do tap into more material things. We do have a different kind of lifestyle and a different approach. And as you said a moment ago Bill, you can’t grow spiritually in the west without a certain amount of money. You know, you really can’t. Now, that might come as a shock to some people because they say, “Well, what does spirituality have to do with money?” but the fact is you’re gonna have to study, you’re gonna have to travel, you’re gonna have to research. Not everyone is designed to be a millionaire or a billionaire necessarily but you’ve gotta have a certain amount of green energy in this world and in this culture to be able to access the information necessary to grow and expand.

BILL HARRIS: And a lot of people have this idea that making money isn’t spiritual or they have some crazy ideas about wealth. Can you give me your outlook on that?

JAMES RAY: Yeah, I think anytime you damn any part of creation, you dam the flow of good in God to you. Do you follow that?

BILL HARRIS: Uh huh, yeah.

JAMES RAY: I mean, because everything comes from one source. I mean every great tradition has taught us since time immemorial that everything comes from one source. In science now it’s proven that everything comes out of this morphogenic field if you want, I mean there’s all kinds of names. They call it the zero point field, they call it the quantum hologram...

BILL HARRIS: The void, or whatever.

JAMES RAY: Yeah, the void of the east. I mean some physicists now, these are leading edge scientists, are calling it the mind of God. So choose whatever label you want, but every great spiritual tradition as well as scientific research now says that all things come out of this field to come into the third dimension or manifest form, and so consequently, your Mercedes Benz comes out of the same field as the altar in some great temple. I mean, it’s all the same thing and so to damn any part of creation is to damn God.

BILL HARRIS: Well, I think that part of the reason that people feel this way, some people feel this way about money not being spiritual first of all, as you know, there is a great tradition particularly in the east of asceticism and a thinking that you had to renounce the world and renounce pleasures and renounce everything of the mind in order to attain enlightenment or union with God...

JAMES RAY: Right.

BILL HARRIS: And you know, then there was a big reaction to that. In fact, Buddha was a big reaction to that, the whole tantric yoga scene was a big reaction to that whole idea. But, the other thing I guess is that a lot of people, when they’re unhappy have this idea that if they had things that it would make them happy and that turns out to not be true, that things, you know, there’s a deeper source of happiness beyond any material things. And so some people think that because material things won’t make you happy, that there’s something wrong with having them.

JAMES RAY: Right.

BILL HARRIS: And, and I don’t really buy into that. If you were having material things just to fill up a hole in yourself, then that’s not going to help you. But there’s no reason why somebody shouldn’t have you know... remember Reverend Ike? He was quite a character. He says “God wants you to be rich” and being wealthy means that you have created value for someone else.

JAMES RAY: Exactly, well I mean because God is rich.

I mean if you want to define God as the source, you know, again, choose quantum hologram if you’d rather use that name or the void, but that originating point or field is not limited in any way, shape or form. And any time that you don’t have complete fulfillment, joy, and abundance, wealth in any of your life it’s because you’re unplugged from source. This gets a little controversial, because I say frequently from stage, “I cannot guarantee you that every single person who is financially rich is spiritual, but I can guarantee you that everyone who is broke is not spiritual because spirit isn’t broke. Spirit isn’t sick, spirit isn’t in lack. I mean, it’s all there into the degree that you’re plugged in and you understand how things work, you can have whatever it is you choose and that’s what you deserve.” And going back to what you said a moment ago Bill, it’s really about and you know, we’ve heard this term used a lot but it’s true, it’s about your attachment to those things. I mean if there’s nothing wrong, when you don’t need to have something anymore then you can have it.

BILL HARRIS: Well, I’ll tell you another thing. As I have become more and more wealthy, my ability to help people has grown because wealth in our society carries a certain amount of power and so I give away a lot of money to charity, I do a lot of things for free without charging a fee to help people, and again, I can do that because I don’t need the money anymore and people are more willing to listen to me and take me seriously when I have something to teach them because I have proven that I’m successful. So there’s a number of reasons for doing that. What are some of the things that you think are key principles that allow people to get in touch with that part of them that can be successful financially?

JAMES RAY: Well, the same principles that allow them to be successful in relationships, to be successful spiritually, physically, physical fitness and health, all of those things. The principles are the same and what you have to understand is again, can we talk about science here for a little bit?

BILL HARRIS: You bet.

JAMES RAY: I mean, there’s some really cool things that are coming to the fore in the scientific arena around how we have an effect upon the world around us. There’s a guy by the name of Vladimir Poponin. Have you heard of his work?

BILL HARRIS: No, uh uh.

JAMES RAY: Vladimir Poponin was a researcher who took human DNA and he took a test tube and put a strand of DNA, you’ve seen a DNA twisted helix right?

BILL HARRIS: Right.

JAMES RAY: Put it in a test tube and, in a vacuum test tube, now automatically there’s a problem here because you can never have a complete vacuum. There’s always photons in there of light or energy and what we have to understand is at the most basic level of existence everything is comprised of energy. So all these photons are random inside of this vacuum tube. He injects a strand of DNA. Now, who thinks of this kind of stuff? Why would you? Why would you stick a DNA in there? But that’s what he did to see if there was any effect. You know what happened? Automatically those photons of light lined up around the DNA. Now, that’s pretty cool because if you think about it, the stuff of which this universe is made, your DNA which is your genetic coding, it’s who you are, has a direct effect upon the stuff of which everything in this world is made. Do you follow me?

BILL HARRIS: Yeah.

JAMES RAY: Because the moment the DNA was interjected the photons lined up around the DNA. Now it gets better than that though. He then extracted the DNA and you would think that the photons would go back to random but they didn’t. They stayed. They stayed in the shape of a DNA and this is now called the phantom effect. Now that’s pretty interesting in and of itself. Because here’s what we have to understand first of all, the stuff, I’ll repeat, the stuff of which this world is made at the most basic level everything is comprised of light or energy. Your DNA, who you are has a direct effect upon the stuff of which this world is made. Now that’s a real key distinction. Now what we also know is that we use about 25% of our DNA. About almost 75% of our DNA lies dormant, it’s almost as if someone had unplugged it at some point and time and science has just been baffled as to why that has occurred. I want to build on this phantom effect though because there’s an institute that maybe you’ve heard of, The HeartMath Institute.

BILL HARRIS: Uh huh.

JAMES RAY: Yeah, well HeartMath has done amazing amounts of research around the heart field. I mean you may know this Bill, but your heart forms in your mother’s womb before your brain does. Your heart has it’s own cognitive capacity. Your heart has an energy field that projects itself several feet outside the body, this has all been proven by Heartmath. And here’s another interesting piece of information is that heart disease is the number one killer right now.

BILL HARRIS: Yeah.

JAMES RAY: And so the heart, you know when people say think with your heart, that’s not just a metaphor. The heart has it’s own cognitive capacities. But what HeartMath Institute has found is that people who experience states of extreme anger, frustration, depression, all those things that we would call, let’s call them negative emotions. The DNA in that individual literally begins to wind up tighter in their body and the tighter the DNA becomes, the less DNA is engaged. You follow me?

BILL HARRIS: Uh huh.

JAMES RAY: People on the other hand who experience states of extreme centeredness, peace, calm, love, gratitude, appreciation, those things that we would term maybe more positive emotions, the DNA literally begins to unwind and untwine and straighten out and the more the DNA is relaxed the more the dormant DNA begins to come into play. That’s pretty cool, isn’t it?

BILL HARRIS: Yeah, and then what does that DNA do?

JAMES RAY: Well, that DNA, go back to what we just said about the phantom effect. That DNA has a direct effect upon photons of light or a direct effect upon the stuff of which this world is made. So get this, if we’re engaging 25% of our DNA, most of us are and we had the ability by moving into meditative states, you like that one don’t you Bill? (laugh) Moving into meditative states or let’s call it maybe deep delta or moving in or living in states of extreme gratitude and joy and appreciation, we engage more of that DNA, do we have a greater effect upon the world around us?

BILL HARRIS: Well I would think so. Perhaps those people are the ones that seem to have an almost magical ability to manifest what they want in the world.

JAMES RAY: Bingo. You know what I do every single morning Bill? I’ve done this for years. In my last book, not my most recent book but my last book called The Science of Success, I wrote a whole chapter on gratitude and it was really funny because I sent it to a corporate president once, I was gonna speak for an organization and he wanted to preview it. He was going to buy bulk copies for his employees and I called him back and I said, “Did you get it?” yeah, “Did you read it?” yeah. He goes, “I really like it,” he goes, “however you know, this book is called The Science of Success, it’s a success book right?” I said, “Yes.” He said, “You had a whole chapter on gratitude. What’s gratitude have to do with success?” And I thought, you know, I didn’t say it but I thought, “You just don’t get it,” because for years Bill, here’s the first thing I say when I get up every morning is “Thank you” and I mean it. I say “Thank you” and then I begin to think about all the things I’m grateful for. I’ve done this for years and I’m really blessed. I mean, you know I am. I mean I’ve been really, really blessed financially and in my business, and I’m just very, very grateful but I believe, you know, it’s kind of like chicken or egg. Which came first? You know, did the gratitude come first or the reason to be grateful? You see, anybody can be grateful after the fact, but I’ll tell you what. It was a little more challenging for me sometimes to be grateful when I was teetering on bankruptcy, which I’ve been in that spot too. So, if what science is telling us is true now though, which it is, it’s proven. I mean go check out HeartMath on the internet, you’ll find them easily or check out Vladimir Poponin. We have a direct effect upon, or our DNA does, upon the stuff of which this world is made and we also have a direct effect upon our DNA. We can engage more of our DNA. So here’s how I’m playing Bill. If most people are using 25% and you can go to 100, I’m going to 100.

BILL HARRIS: Yeah, why not. You know, you’ve heard me speak and one of the things that I often talk about is a very simple concept or a deceivingly simple concept that whatever you focus on you tend to get and most people are not focusing on what they want. Instead they’re focusing on what they’re afraid of, what they want to avoid, what they don’t want. And when you are getting up in the morning and saying “Thank you,” and thinking of all the things you’re grateful for, you are focusing on what you want.

JAMES RAY: And you’re unwinding your DNA. When you’re focusing on all of the things you’re afraid of and you’re trying to avoid, you’re tightening up your DNA. This is scientifically proven now, which means that part of your capabilities are being disconnected. There’s one more experiment that was done with DNA. Do you wanna hear about it?

BILL HARRIS: Sure.

JAMES RAY: US Army, you maybe heard of this one. They took human DNA and they put it into a petri dish and this study was done in California, and they took the DNA into another room. They took it from the person and they put the DNA of the person in a different room. Then they subjected the person to all kinds of different videos, violent videos, war, sexual videos, all these types of different emotional situations and every single time the person in the room watching the video had a response, then the DNA in the petri dish next door vibrated, actually responded as well. Now that’s pretty interesting because when you go back to think about what I was talking about fields, you know, the quantum hologram or morphogenic fields, what that tells us is the concept of non-locality and you’ve probably heard of that in quantum physics.

BILL HARRIS: Sure.

JAMES RAY: It basically says that our DNA is, we’re connected and it got even better than that. They took it like 50 miles away and still got the same response. Every single time the person had an emotional response in this room, then it vibrated in the petri dish at a distance away. Now you might say so what, big deal. Well it is a big deal because what we also know is that you know, you and I spent some time together last week Bill and we gave each other a hug. We exchanged DNA. I mean, we literally did. How do you like them apples?

BILL HARRIS: No bodily fluids though.

JAMES RAY: No, none of that at all. (Laugh.) But we did exchange DNA so are we still connected? I mean at some level we are.

BILL HARRIS: Well, no question about it. In fact you know, from the time we’re two-years-old or thereabouts when people start using language, we begin to chop the entire process that makes up the whole universe into separate bits, separate events, separate things, and we forget that that’s all happening conceptually. It’s all happening in our map of reality inside. In actual fact, the entire universe is one thing. It’s one process and the idea of separate things is really an illusion..

James Ray: It’s an illusion.

BILL HARRIS: By the mind.

JAMES RAY: Well if everything, if everything came from a single, if you believe at some level the big bang you can still believe in God and believe in the big bang because that singularity or that point of origin was God or the creator, but if everything came from that singularity then it’s all expanded outward, it’s all connected from the same point isn’t it?

BILL HARRIS: Sure, and this idea of the DNA being effected at a distance is really what some people call the butterfly effect, the same kind of a thing...

JAMES RAY: Yeah.

BILL HARRIS: That a butterfly flaps it’s wings in Hong Kong and it effects the weather in New York or whatever...

JAMES RAY: Exactly.

BILL HARRIS: And that’s true. The only part about that that’s deceptive in a way is that the butterfly and Tokyo and New York are not separate things, they’re all part of one continuum and that’s why they effect each other.

JAMES RAY: Well, what physicists are now saying is the single most important finding in quantum physics today is called Bell’s theorem. Have you heard of that one?

BILL HARRIS: Oh yeah.

JAMES RAY: Yeah, well Bell’s theorem basically says that things are connected mysteriously stay connected and they’re non-local. So if we, you know, I want to come back and let’s put this into some practical application because that’s what I’m passionate about. If we, just to recap, we have an effect, our DNA has an effect upon every single thing that this world is made out of protons of light, our DNA effects that. We have direct effect upon our DNA, engaging that, loosening it, tightening it, based upon our heart based emotions and feelings and those things are non-local. So what that means is that if I need to attract or create something in my life to the degree that I’m in harmony or resonance and opening my DNA and sending that energetic field outward that it doesn’t matter you know, Bill, you’re in Oregon and I’m in San Diego. You know, time and space are irrelevant. I mean we’re still connected to those things and we have absolute God-given right to be able to attract and bring those things into our lives. And that’s not just hocus pocus or you know, mystical fu fu. That’s science now.

BILL HARRIS: So what do you say to somebody who’s listening to this and they’re sitting there saying, “I’m living from month to month. I barely have enough to feed myself and my kids and this all sounds pretty theoretical to me. What specifically do I do?”

JAMES RAY: Here’s what you do. First of all you create a really, really clear intention of what you want and what you choose for your life and I tend to talk about what you choose. I used to talk a lot about what you want, even in a lot of my books, but here’s a real key distinction. Wanting is a recognition of not having and so the mere wanting is an energy field or a vibration as well that is subtly putting out that you don’t have it, and so what I’d much rather do is say, “Here’s what I choose to create.” Get really, really clear on that and that sounds so simple and yet Bill, I’m sure you had this experience. I talk to people almost every single day who have such vague ambiguous things that they’re choosing for their life. I ask most people, “What do you really choose to create in your life?” and a lot of them will be like, “Well, I don’t know, more?” Well more what? And if you got a dollar is that your goal? Or more misery or more excess weight, or, what is more? Or even more importantly, and you alluded to this earlier Bill, a lot of people tell you what they don’t want. What do you choose for your life? “Well, I don’t want to be fat, I’ll tell you that. I don’t want to lose my job and I sure don’t want to have all this credit card debt.” Well that’s not what I asked you. So, get really, really clear on what you choose for your life, not what you think you can get but what would you dare to dream if you knew anything was possible. Get that as an intention. At the quantum level, what science now tells us is that that creates a particle and a particle is where things begin to come into manifest form. Someone may say, “Well quantum physics is all exciting, it’s really nice to hear about but what does that have to do with the third dimension?” Well everything because everything that’s created in this world comes out of that realm. That’s the foundation of all existence. So you create that particle at the quantum level and you have to keep, that’s your intention, what you intend to create. And then the second thing you have to do is keep your attention upon it and that’s the most challenging thing of all.

BILL HARRIS: And you used a word that I think is very important and that is “choose,” what you choose to create. A lot of people come to me and they say, “Well I can’t, I haven’t found my purpose.” I don’t think that you find your purpose. I think you choose it.

JAMES RAY: Yes.

BILL HARRIS: You make a decision that this is what you want to do and this is where the subtleties of this focusing on what you want or don’t want come in because a lot of times when people can’t choose something, they can’t make a decision, it’s because they are afraid of making a wrong decision, they are afraid of making a mistake, they are afraid of failing. In other words, their focus is on something they don’t want and that creates all kinds of confusion inside them. You have to decide, “Here’s where I want to go, here’s what I want to do,” and it’s a choice.

JAMES RAY: Right.

BILL HARRIS: So I thought it was very important that you used that word.

JAMES RAY: Well, as you know I’ve been initiated in many mystical orders and I’ve studied ancient traditions. They’re out of The Dead Sea Scrolls the Essenes who were a very, very powerful sect, in fact many, many scholars believe that Jesus actually studied with the Essenes because so many of the things he taught were directly out of their teachings and they were at least 500 years B.C. but there’s a verse that I use consistently because it’s so profound and it says this, if you dissect and understand it, “three are the dwellings of the sons and daughters of man: thought, feeling, and body. When the three become one you can say to this mountain ‘move’ and the mountain will move.” Now, Jesus even said something, “If you have faith greater than a mustard seed, you can say to a mountain ‘move’ and a mountain will move,” which is quite interesting because it’s very similar. But let’s dissect this for a moment going back to your original question, Bill, about the person who’s living month to month, what do they need to do to create different results? The Essenes, 2500 year-old text, Dead Sea Scrolls says “Thought, feeling, body. Three dwellings.” So first of all you create the intention, that’s what you choose for your life. That’s the thought. That’s what I call a spiritual prototype. You create this spiritual prototype and you get really, really clear on it. You envision it, you have it, you know exactly what it is. So that’s thought. Then you have feeling and then you have body. Well, lets define those because a lot of people think that emotions and feeling are the same thing. I disagree. I believe that emotions, emotion is energy in motion. If you look at 99% of the word emotion, it’s motion. So body is where the emotions put energy into motion. Feeling is the heart center, going back to HeartMath, the DNA, everything we’ve discussed. Feeling is the combination of thought and emotion coming together to create a feeling and a feeling is visceral. I mean a lot of people say “I’m feeling this”, well, are you really or is that an emotion? There’s a distinction here. A feeling is something that’s in your body. Does that make sense?

BILL HARRIS: Uh huh, yeah.

JAMES RAY: It’s in your body and it’s a combination of the thought and the emotion coming together to create a feeling that’s visceral or in your body. That’s the heart center where is the number one killer is heart disease because that’s the filtering of the lower chakras of the east and the upper chakras. If you look at the eastern traditions which you’re very familiar with, the lower chakras are the emotional centers and that’s what moves the body into action, and so to follow this teaching you get the intention, we’ve talked about that. Then you have to feel, and I talk about knowing. You have to know that it’s done. What do you feel in your body? What’s the vibrational, the energetic feeling in your body knowing that this thing is done? It’s there and then the third thing is the action. Remember, energy in motion is emotion. That’s the body and so the question I ask myself is when I come to a decision point regardless of what the physical appearances are, if I knew right now that it was done, what action would I take? You know, if I already had, let’s say the listener wants to make six figures a year or whatever. If I already, and I really knew I had six figures a year, what would I do today? And that’s the tough part. It’s putting the body, thought, feeling, body. It’s holding that feeling, it’s holding that body and moving that body rather into action to make decisions and to take action based upon where you’re going versus where you are. Did I explain that clearly?

BILL HARRIS: Yeah, yeah.

JAMES RAY: And that’s what most people, where they fall down. You know, a lot of the personal development arena says, “Well, you know, thought is powerful.” I believe thought is nothing more than a steering wheel. It’s a directional system. You know, and the tires on your car is the body or the actions you’re taking but without the engine, that’s the combination of the feeling, or the thoughts and emotions coming together. That engine is the driver and that’s the feeling center that you’ve got to engage all three of those and when you do it sends out the vibration and it affects the DNA, it affects the photons, it’s non-local, all the things we’re talking about and magic, what appears to be magic occurs. It really does.

BILL HARRIS: Well, you know I teach the same thing. You have to decide what you want, focus your mind on it, add as much emotional passion as you can to it and as much faith, which is really this idea that it’s already done, and when you do that you are compelled into action and you attract in one way or another, you attract the resources, the ideas, the how to that you need in order to have the proper action and then whatever you want happens. Where most people fall down is that they either spend most of their time focusing on what they don’t want instead of what they do want, they add passion to that, they add all kinds of emotional intensity to...

JAMES RAY: And they take action upon that...

BILL HARRIS: Their fear, right. Then they take actions that ultimately cause their fears to come to be instead of you know, so if they are afraid they’re not gonna have enough money and they feel that really strongly they will focus...

JAMES RAY: They say, “I can’t afford this,” and they don’t make any expenditures because they already believe they’re broke.

BILL HARRIS: Exactly and this whole power to do this is completely neutral. It does not care whether you pick something to focus it on that you want or you don’t want. It can’t really make that distinction. Whatever you focus it on, it just makes it happen.

JAMES RAY: Let me say something with all love and respect to the listener who maybe is having some real challenges financially, and you know, the only reason we’re talking finances is because that’s real measurable. This applies to every area of life, relationships. I’ve had people you know, attract their dream mate and get married and have a family and you know, whatever, but money is really tangible so if there’s someone listening that’s having some real challenges right now, with all love and respect, let me just tell you, you’re already an absolute pro at doing what we’re talking about and you’re doing it in the reverse direction because you always really get what you choose. And it’s like you were saying Bill, if you’re constantly putting out the intention and thinking about and focusing on and feeling the brokeness and taking action based upon the brokeness then you create exactly what you’re putting out energetically and that’s attracted to you at lightning speed. If you take the same expertise that you have at creating being broke, I mean it takes a lot of expertise to do that. It really does. I’m not being facetious here, I’m really not.

BILL HARRIS: I tell everybody that, everyone, everyone who has a nervous system is really good at manifesting whatever they’re focusing on. It’s just that what they’re focusing on is for most people happening unconsciously on auto pilot ...

JAMES RAY: Exactly.

BILL HARRIS: And if someone’s been traumatized in some way they tend to develop a generalization about the world, that the world is a dangerous place, or at least a potentially dangerous place in some way, emotionally dangerous, physically dangerous, in some way that it’s dangerous and they think in order to avoid this danger I’ve gotta watch out for it. In order to watch out for it you have to focus on it and when you focus on it all those powerful, passionate feelings start to come up and that adds a tremendous amount of power to it which puts you into action just like you were saying and then they get that. So people already know how to manifest...

JAMES RAY: And it tightens up their DNA, you know, based on all the things we’ve already talked about, lets add them all in, which creates limited DNA being engaged which means you’re not accessing your full God-given capability, um, you know, all those, all those things. I mean, again, like I said earlier, I think we live in really exciting times because we’ve got all the research and all the proof now that the mystics have told us since time immemorial. I believe the quantum physicists are the mystics of the 21st century. I mean they’re “proving” things that the spiritual traditions have told us since time began, that you are God in human form. I mean you have the ability to create your world and that’s not anything that Jesus or Buddha or Krishna any of the great traditions haven’t told us.

BILL HARRIS: Well you and I just returned from this Transformational Leadership Council meeting because we’re both members of that and some of the top personal growth and spiritual teachers in the world are part of that group and almost everybody there this time was talking about quantum mechanics, and the science behind all this. I just received something yesterday about something in November that the Dali Lama is putting on which is really the science about meditation. So everybody is talking about this. I’d like you to describe a little bit about your experiences with some of these shaman that you visited. I know you were just in South America just recently visiting someone. Can you talk about this shamanic path and some of the experiences you’ve had, some of the teachers you’ve met and what you’ve learned from them?

JAMES RAY: I can. You know, I think it’s really interesting because there’s—and you eluded to this a little earlier about how many, many times we’ve been taught that we need to shun anything that had to do with Earth, money, power, food, sex, we’re suppose to run away from because that’s carnal, that’s mundane, or it’s not spiritual. And so one of the things that I love about the shamanic traditions is that they, by and large, they would be called the descenders if you will. There’s two schools of thought, spiritually, historically. There’s the descenders and the ascenders and the ascenders basically you know, my kingdom is not of this world, you know. Basically the ascenders are by and large I’m gonna sit in place and jump into God and get away from everything that has to do with money, food, sex, power, because those things are sin. On the opposite side of the spectrum there are the descenders who say money, sex, food, power, Gaia, Earth, is all very much spiritual and very, very beautiful and anything that disconnects from that is sin. And these two camps historically are at odds with each other.

BILL HARRIS: Yeah, they’re also called you know, the right-hand path and the left-hand path.

JAMES RAY: Exactly.

BILL HARRIS: In the spiritual traditions.

JAMES RAY: Exactly. One of my great mentors who I never met in this physical plane but I have studied extensively was Dion Fortune, one of the esoteric writers that ever lived in my opinion said this, and I have lived by this, that “The descent into matter must be complete before the ascent into spirit can commence,” and I find that in a lot of times, I used to speak at new age conferences and such and I don’t do that so much anymore because a lot of what happens is that people attempt to ascend in the spirit and they’re not grounded and so my path has been one of coming up through a traditional Christian household, really rooted in that and then I began to study eastern traditions which are basically ascenders and got drawn into shamanic or what is typically called the pagan traditions and then came full circle again and started studying ceremonial magic and a lot of the mystery schools and the esoteric traditions. So, I’ve got a real well-rounded path and in my opinion I believe that like the Buddha said, the power is in the middle path or in balance in between the two—ascent and descent. Going back to the shamanic traditions, they’re the descenders and when I go to Peru and I study you know, in the Andes, everything is about Padamama which just means Mother Earth, it’s all very goddess based, it’s all about Gaia and Earth and nature and connecting with nature, and it’s really a very, very lovely tradition in my opinion. I’ve been in many, many ceremonies where the shaman would actually, if they were going to cut down a tree they would talk to the tree before cutting it down and thank the tree in advance and tell the tree, “Here’s why we’re doing this and here’s what we’re going to use you for in this ceremony,” and from the western perspective that seems maybe a little silly. But I don’t think so, I think it’s beautiful, and I think that part of the reason that right now, and I know we probably don’t want to get into politics, but we’re, we’re really raping Gaia and Mother Earth in many, many ways and hurting our, our, our ecosystem and our environments because we’ve lost that part of us that respects the fact that we’re all connected and we’re all one living being including the planet. And so that’s really the shamanic tradition is a descending kind of path that really connects you with nature and Earth and I’ve had some phenomenal experiences in the Andes there, in ceremonies of that nature as well as in Brazil, which I know, you and I talked about it at the Transformational Leadership Council, and in the jungles there in Brazil some of the ceremonies with, with again, very, very much about connecting with Earth, using Earth, understanding that whole piece and how I’m a part of it as well. On the other end of the spectrum, I traveled to Egypt and I understand those esoteric traditions and the mystery schools and many ceremonial magic kinds of things. And the word magic doesn’t really mean pulling rabbits out of hats. That’s stage magic. How I define magic is the ability to create willful change in the fabric of your universe both spiritually and materially. That’s an esoteric or spiritual kind of magic, the ability to create willful change in the fabric of your universe both spiritually and materially and that’s what quantum physics really is. I mean...

BILL HARRIS: Well that’s what we were talking about a minute ago too is, is how to set an intention and add passion and emotion to it and then take action.

JAMES RAY: Exactly. And so, I’ve met a lot of ceremonial magicians who can do all the circumnambulation and can chant all the chants and go through all the ceremonies and they can’t bring anything into the physical plane because they’re so far out into the ethers that they’re not grounded. They have no connection to Gaia and then on the opposite end of the spectrum I’ve dealt with a lot of shaman and a lot of their traditions of the descenders or another great tradition would be Wicca which many have heard of which is very much goddess based and a lot of those people are so grounded in Earth and they cannot move into the higher realms of existence as well, and so, to the degree that you can merge the both you become a practical mystic in my opinion. You can take that power from the unmanifest realm of spirit and bring it into the physical plane, and that’s where it gets really exciting. You know, Teilhard de Chardin told us so long ago, “Bill, you’re not a physical being having a spiritual experience, you’re a spiritual being having a physical experience.” And as a spiritual being which we all are, we’re still having a physical experience, and so consequently we need to remember that. You know, a lot of people in the spiritual pursuit arena don’t remember that. They think they’re spiritual being only is supposed to have a spiritual experience but you are having a physical experience and that means if you weren’t here to experience all the food and the wealth and the relationships and the sex and the money and the cultures and the fine wines and all those types of things that Earth has to offer, then you might as well not have even come.

BILL HARRIS: Well, and you know, this question comes up in almost all of the traditions. Ken Wilber talks about different stages of spiritual evolution and in one of them he talks about is Earth mysticism where you begin to feel a oneness with the physical plane.

JAMES RAY: Right.

BILL HARRIS: And then he talks about the next stage where you feel a oneness with the more spiritual plane, the un-manifest plane, but there’s a stage after that where you can be in the physical plane while feeling that oneness while you’re also feeling the oneness on the more spiritual plane. And in Buddhism they talk about rijimuge which is between Heaven and Earth or between the spiritual and the material, there is no difference, there is no separation. But there’s another one beyond that called jijimuge which is really where you don’t make any distinctions at all. You don’t make any distinctions between. It’s really where you’ve realized both the manifest and the un-manifest and the oneness involved in both but you don’t separate them and you can be in this world. It’s the whole world of the bodhisattva in Buddhist thought.

JAMES RAY: Yeah, well that’s why I tell people that all goals are spiritual goals, all of them. I mean if you want to get a Porsche that’s a spiritual goal, if

...a gentleman who lives in a dark room and there’s a snake

over in the corner, his entire life he sees this snake and he’s afraid of the snake and one time, one time the light comes on and he realizes it’s a rope and then the lights go off again and it’s never the same

you want to have a relationship that’s a spiritual goal, all of it, because everything comes from spirit. It’s all the same and those things, goals are nothing more than a mile marker of your ability to manifest in the physical plane and as your concsiousness evolves and your abilities evolve you have more and more power to be able to manifest in the physical plane. If you’re operating across the full spectrum, you know, I love Wilber as well and you and I have talked about him. One of the things he talks about is as you evolve, you transcend and include...

BILL HARRIS: Right.

JAMES RAY: The lower levels, so, so you know, that’s been my path. I went from traditional Christianity into shamanism and I didn’t let go of Christianity. And then when I went from shamanism I went into the mystery schools, I didn’t let go of shamanism. I mean all of those things are parts of the evolutionary process and what we have tended to do in many cases is transcend and suppress or disconnect. We move up maybe a level in our way of accessing consciousness but we suppress for instance our sexual nature, or a part of us that’s still every bit as much who we are as the higher level. You know, and Wilber talks about transcending and including and again in the buddhist tradition that you were quoting, that’s what it’s really about is as you move up. You know, the people I have met that I would say are really, really enlightened have a tremendous, they’re thunderous bravado kind of people. I mean, they’re really playing at a big level in the world but they’re not defined by that and that’s the difference you know. I think when you learn who you are when you have a full on God experience and you really remember your true identity, you come back in as a bodhisattva. You come back into the world with so much gusto and you play at such a big level because you realize it’s just a game anyway.

BILL HARRIS: Well, exactly. I wanted to ask you, you just got back from South America I know. What was it like, I mean give us a little travel log. I mean, what was it like sitting there in front of a South American shaman and doing some things with him?

JAMES RAY: Um, you want me talk specifics?

BILL HARRIS: Sure, yeah.

JAMES RAY: (Laugh.) Well, we were in ceremony. I was with a Columbian shaman there, Cahoogaly, and he’s an ayahuascero. Every great tradition has had it’s different ways of moving into altered states, or higher states of awareness and being. Again, as I told you, I was raised very, very, very, fundamental, and began to do my own research when I was about 18-years-old, but I was there for the main purpose of going through this shamanic ceremony in Brazil.

BILL HARRIS: Before you describe it, just tell me a little bit about this guy. Is he very westernized?

JAMES RAY: No, he didn’t speak a word of English.

BILL HARRIS: I mean, is he, is he living out in the jungle somewhere? Is this some guy that’s wearing jeans and a polo shirt or you know?

JAMES RAY: He was wearing a ceremonial outfit which was all white and he had a lot of Brazilian, well he’s from Colombia so a lot of South American kind of feathers and those types of things. He looked like a shaman. I mean, if you would picture one you’d seen in a movie or something then he’d be pretty darn close.

BILL HARRIS: Uh huh. Okay.

JAMES RAY: Pretty darn close, and every time we went into ceremony he’d put on his white outfit because it was very, very auspicious for him, and there was a lot of chanting and there’s rattling and drumming, which again is the South American or and the Amazonian tradition but it’s no different than the monks who chant and use different gongs and things to create a vibration and move themselves into an altered state. I mean it just depends upon the culture, all of them have used those modalities.

BILL HARRIS: So anyway, tell people what you did and what happened.

JAMES RAY: There’s this plant called ayahuasca, there’s a substance called ayahuasca and it’s the combination of two different plants that they have used in the Amazon since antiquity. It’s only been exposed to the western world for about 25 years now and so, the combination of these two plants, one of them has a high level of DMT in it. DMT is a substance that occurs naturally in the human species. However, we only have large amounts of it two times in a lifetime. At birth we have a big rush of DMT and then at death we do as well, and so the pineal gland that sits at the crown chakra is the one that really operates with DMT and it’s interesting in science because you know, the pineal is not very functional. After a child is born it starts to atrophy and science is kind of bewildered as to why it’s there or what it does. Many, many researchers believe that it’s the gateway to the divine, but nonetheless, when you take these two plants and you mix them together, one of them has an MAO inhibitor in it which allows the DMT to pass through the gut into the blood and past the brain barrier to the pineal and the pineal just sucks up that DMT like a sponge. I mean it, it goes after the DMT and it couldn’t get there without the MAO inhibitor. Now when you ask the shaman, again, as we go back to antiquity Bill, all these plants in the Amazon, you can’t even imagine how many plants are in the Amazon and there’s only two plants that you can mix together in a certain quantity to give this kind of an effect where the DMT can pass the blood brain barrier and get to the pineal. What are the odds of them finding these two plants? And you ask the Shaman, “How did you figure this out?” They say, “The plants told us.”

BILL HARRIS: Uh huh.

JAMES RAY: Interesting. The plants told us because they’re so connected to that level of Gaia or Earth or they’re all plugged into nature itself. When you ingest this substance it puts you, it moves you into an altered state of consciousness in extreme and there’s, there’s several names that ayahuasca had been given that’s been called the umbilical cord to the cosmos and one of the real powerful names is the death vine. Remember I said that, that normal human beings only have two DMT experiences, birth and death, and so it literally is a death experience. It’s a death of the conscious mind, the identity of the whole structure that we’ve created, the things you were talking earlier Bill. You know, the generalizations, and the beliefs and all of those things that we’ve constructed around ourselves and it moves us, it moves you beyond that into a realm of pre-form or pre-personal, if you will. It’s really difficult to put into words. But, the very first thing that you do is you get, it comes on in about 45 minutes to an hour, the first time that I did this was quite frightening because I literally thought I was dying, I really did. I didn’t think it was figurative or a metaphor, I thought I was dying. I had this heavy feeling in my chest and I couldn’t breathe and I started feeling myself rising out of my body and all the stuff kicks up, you know. Everything. You know, what the hell am I doing here and what was I thinking, I wasn’t thinking? You know, what’s going to happen to my business and no one knows where I am, you know, all that stuff. And automatically then, well not automatically. Not even close to automatically, through a period I kind of pushed through that because there’s no stopping it and I got jettisoned into this fractal dome, this geometric dome of all these colors and this geometry which you know, a lot of other science tells us that everything comes out of geometry, the platonic solids and all these different geometric shapes are everywhere and the colors are vibrant and I moved beyond a place where there’s any recognition whatsoever of my physical body or my physical identity and at one point I woke up...

BILL HARRIS: Or your mental identity I assume, you know, your conceptual identity, your ego.

JAMES RAY: Exactly. It was a full-on God experience. You know, and I’ve meditated since I was in my early 20’s and I know you’ve meditated for a long time and we’ve both had profound experiences I’m sure, and you get into that place where you’re just in union and oneness with everything, but I woke up Bill in this sea of infinity and I had no remembrance whatsoever of drinking ayahuasca, I had no recognition of my body at all. I was formless. I had no identity whatsoever. I asked the question, you know, “Where am I?” and the answer was “Here.” And I asked “Who am I?” and I said, “I am.” and nothing else came, literally. I had no other piece of JAMES RAY. It was almost like I was that original spark of intention in this divine quantum soup and it was just, there’s no way to put it into words. There really isn’t.

BILL HARRIS: Well it’s beyond words because it’s the conceptualizations and the words that we’re so tapped into—that we identify with so strongly, our map of who we are instead of who we really are—that’s what the mystics are all trying to get out of the way so that people can experience who they are directly. And once you get all of that out of the way that’s when you see that you really are the one energy of all and everything.

JAMES RAY: The map was shattered Bill. I mean it was shattered. I was infinite. I had been there since time began. Time didn’t even exist. I mean, again, you can’t, you’re right. You can’t put it into words but little by little what began to happen was I thought okay, I am...now what? What am I going to do now? And I began to little by little intend, and this is where, you know. Go back to what we talked about earlier. I intended to build a body. I intended to build an identity called James Ray and little by little I started bringing this back together and formulated it and holding it and keeping my attention upon it. And when I finally got back, who knows, I mean time is nonexistent in that kind of a space, I had no idea how much time lapsed but when I finally got back into my body, I was laying in the crucifix position, my arms straight out and it was the most amazing, incredible, overwhelming rush of joy and gratitude and appreciation to be here. I mean, and all of these things started coming so clear to me Bill, of how I had set up so much garbage in many ways in my life and always feeling like I wasn’t there yet. I was waiting to arrive. Because this hadn’t happened yet or that hadn’t happened yet. I was just in this moment where every, I knew, I realized everything is perfect. It’s just perfect and I asked the question, “What would you change about your life?” and I thought, “Not a damn thing, nothing.” I mean it’s perfect. Everything. And all of the things that I used to judge about myself or be dissatisfied with, it was comical. And I can’t really put it into words any better than that other than just to say it totally moved me to a new level of understanding because every single thing that I had studied intellectually or known intellectually for years upon years, I had it experientially and that experience is something that nobody or no thing can ever take away.

BILL HARRIS: So this has had a profound effect on you after the experience was over too?

JAMES RAY: And still to this day. Still to this day, yeah. I mean, because again, when you tap in, have that full-on God experience, the experience wanes. It’s not like I stay in that non-dual state every single day all day long. I mean, you don’t. But, you never forget it. I remember, talking about Ken Wilber, I heard Ken Wilber tell the story of, and he may have adopted it out of an eastern tradition, I think he maybe did, but of a gentleman who lives in a dark room and there’s a snake over in the corner. His entire life he sees this snake and he’s afraid of the snake and one time the light comes on and he realizes it’s a rope and then the lights go off again and it’s never the same. You can’t ever be afraid again even though it still looks like a snake you know it’s not. And so when you have that kind of an experience, like I was saying earlier, you come back into this world with so much gusto and so much bravado and just live a thunderous joyous life because you realize it’s just a rope. I mean anything that used to rattle you or move you or you allow it to control you, it just doesn’t have the same hold anymore. I do believe though Bill that, and here’s the practical part of me, I heard some people saying, “Well, you know..” By the way, ayahuasca is really trendy now. You hear a lot of people talking about it, but you still have to do the work. I believe that what that, those full-on god experiences whether it’s with Holosync® or whether it’s any other modality, ceremonial magic, initiations I’ve been through, ayahuasca whatever, is it creates new neural pathways and the metaphor I like to use is it’s like going through a dense jungle. The first time through you’ve got a machete and you’re hacking away and you’re hacking away and it’s kind of difficult to get through, but once you do, you’ve created a path. Now you can walk that path again and again and again and the path becomes more well-trodden. If you stop walking the path, it’ll grow back over again, and so I believe that when you have those really, those epiphanies, those moments of satori or samadhi, or whatever term we want to use, then you still gotta do the work. I fully don’t believe that I can go to Brazil and drink a shamanic substance and go through a ceremony and that’s all I’ve gotta do. My job now is to come back, now that that new neural pathway is created, is to come back and to walk that path in my daily spiritual practice, but a new pathway has been opened.

BILL HARRIS: Sure, and you know, another thing Ken Wilber talks about which I concur with is that if someone has a unity experience, they will then interpret that experience from their level of awareness. So if someone for instance is a fundamentalist Christian and they have that, they tend to assume that only Christians can have that experience and that it has something to do with Jesus and so on. If somebody is a little higher level of development they might assume that they are God. But at an even higher level of, of development someone might say, “Ah, we’re all God.”

JAMES RAY: Exactly. Exactly.

BILL HARRIS: And so it’s, it’s you, because you have studied these mystery schools and eastern philosophy and you have a lot of experience also with meditation, not just intellectual information, your interpretation of this experience is a very high interpretation in my opinion.

JAMES RAY: Are you familiar with James Fowler? Harvard University. James Fowler Harvard School of Divinity believe it or not, but he did a lot of, you were talking about Wilber but he did a lot of research on the same thing and he basically concluded that, that God doesn’t create us in his or her image. We create God in our own image based upon where we are in the evolutionary scale of consciousness. We project that outward, that kind of God experience, we project outward onto the creative source based upon who we are. Interesting research he’s done.

BILL HARRIS: Well, another thing I was thinking about while you were telling that story was that a lot of people think that they just sort of want to disappear into the light so to speak. To go to that place where you were when you took that substance and stay there.

JAMES RAY: It gets a little boring.

BILL HARRIS: But you could do that but if you do, you really can’t be here also, and a lot of people think that they have some sort of a satori type of experience and then they get used to it, and they think it’s gone and it’s really not gone. As long as you’re in a body and as long as you have a mind, your mind is going to create what a mind creates. The distinction is after you have those kinds of experiences, you don’t fall for the fact that what your mind is creating is it.

JAMES RAY: You know it’s not a snake.

Bill Harris: Yeah, you know it’s not a snake. But that doesn’t mean that your mind does not continue to create desires and thoughts and emotions and all the rest of it and all the human things that happen to people don’t continue to happen. It’s just that you don’t have to be afraid about it. You don’t have to misinterpret it as that you’re a separate ego in a bag of skin and that the world is a dangerous place and all of those sorts of things.

James Ray: You’re so right. What I say is that the moment you notice it you’re no longer it.

BILL HARRIS: It’s because you can’t bite your own teeth or see your own head. God cannot have knowledge of itself, like just in the same way you can’t touch the tip of your nose with the tip of your nose.

JAMES RAY: Well, the ego gets a bad rap and the ego is nothing more than a Latin word for eye and so, it’s not that you, you can’t transcend your ego until you have one first of all, but then even when you move into this extreme non-dual state or God space it doesn’t mean that you still don’t have an ego. You do. I mean because that’s just again like you were saying a moment ago. That’s part of playin’ in this world. It’s just that, that you can observe it, you’re not it anymore. It no longer...

BILL HARRIS: An ego is a handy thing to have.

JAMES RAY: It is.

BILL HARRIS: It’s a map of reality that you use to get around in life and a map is a handy thing to have.

JAMES RAY: Well, and you can’t run a business or have a relationship or function in 3D without an ego.

BILL HARRIS: Right and if you didn’t have a map for where you were going, you might get lost but on the other hand if you start thinking that that map of Colorado or whatever is Colorado and you start trying to drive on the little lines and go swimming in the little blue parts and all that...

JAMES RAY: (Laughs)

BILL HARRIS: And that’s kind of what we do. We make this internal conceptual map of who we are and what the universe is and then we forget that it’s just a conceptual map. When you do ayahuasca or Holosync or many other things that can take you to this place, you get past the map and you get to see things without that filter in front of you and then you realize, as you said that, it’s a rope, not a snake, or just that what you thought was reality is just a creation of your mind.

JAMES RAY: But you know what else happened for me Bill, is that you learn to appreciate and be so grateful for the map too because going back to what you said a moment ago, a lot of people think you get out to this non-dual, this God experience and you stay there but you know, after awhile I mean, many of the great traditions tell us that God created this domain so that he or she could experience itself. After I’d been out there for awhile in this sea of infinity it’s like, okay, well let me do something with this now and that’s the main reason when I came back into my body finally full recognition, there was so much joy and gratitude and appreciation because I thought, I remember the shaman said to me, Cahoogaly when I finally came back, he said to me, “What was your experience?” And I said, “I am so glad and happy to have a body,” and it could have been just a day earlier I was thinking, “Well boy, I wish I was in better shape or I wish I was this or I wish...” I was just so grateful to be able to play in this world. Some traditions tell us and who knows what the truth is, but it’s a great metaphor at best, at least rather I should say, is that there is soul upon soul waiting in line to get into Earth because it’s such a great place to play and learn and it’s so easy to screw it up. And so for me, I went out there and it was glorious and it was beautiful and it was profound and boy, it’s so profound and glorious and beautiful to be sitting in my office on my phone in the third dimension to you today and to be able to have a business and have a body and all the little bumps and grinds that we go through to run a business and to make some money and to have a relationship. All those little stubbing points and things that seem to be irritants, they’re great.

BILL HARRIS: Well, anything that takes you to that perspective I think is valuable. So how can people get in touch with you or find out more about what you do? Find out how they can learn from you? I know you have a couple of web sites I think.

JAMES RAY: Yes, actually I would encourage them to go to www.thepowertowin.com and that, I have, a full curriculum that really follows my path. It starts with learning about the mind and how to use the mind and the many things that you and I share in common Bill, and then it moves into a lot of the shamanic traditions and then finally into some of the, it finally becomes an esoteric school of thought as the whole curriculum unfolds. But certainly I have my own website as well which is just www.jamesray.com but I’d encourage either one, www.thepowertowin.com will give you a good idea of how to take a look at and to expose yourself to some of the things that I’m doing.

BILL HARRIS: Well, I encourage everybody to go to www.thepowertowin.com and to look at all the stuff that you do because I’ll tell all people listening, I know James pretty well and he’s the real deal and you certainly, if you’re interested in what we’ve been talking about you can certainly learn a lot from James. So any last thoughts you want to leave people with James?

JAMES RAY: I just really appreciate their time listening and I’ll just mirror as well that I’m very, very impressed, I’m honored to have this conversation with you Bill and I’m sure or I’m gonna assume that most of your listeners are using your Holosync technology as I am also, and keep it up because that is exactly what we’re talking about here. And as you continue to move into different states of experience then you also are able to move into different levels or stages of consciousness which, you know, states are temporary but stages and levels are permanent and, and so those kinds of experiences help you move permanently forward, and you have the right to create an abundant joyous life and that’s my wish for you.

BILL HARRIS: Great. Well thanks so much for being with us and to everybody listening, I look forward to being with you again next time.

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